Compression versus Tension - Gimbal

RichWest · Dec 6, 2015

I went the memory foam route in the beginning, then it was suggested by the manufacture to freeze it, wow it ended up hard as a rock within ten minutes. I was literally able to saw and drill the softest foam material available. Foam ear plugs are made from similar material, now you know why that doesn't work well for isolating vibration.

I've removed my gimbal(s) more than 100 times since ownership. Its durability has surpassed my expectation considering the abuse I have given it. My concern now is whether I am inducing additional vibration into the gimbal from any wear and tear. Gimbal isolator balls will have a mechanical life, at what point have I exceeded that expectation.

I'll try Vimeo this evening, can't be any worse. I'll be out testing another tweak today, hopefully the weather conditions are the same so it'll be a fair comparison to yesterday's efforts.

Maddog · Dec 6, 2015

RichWest said:
I went the memory foam route in the beginning, then it was suggested by the manufacture to freeze it, wow it ended up hard as a rock within ten minutes. I was literally able to saw and drill the softest foam material available. Foam ear plugs are made from similar material, now you know why that doesn't work well for isolating vibration.

I've removed my gimbal(s) more than 100 times since ownership. Its durability has surpassed my expectation considering the abuse I have given it. My concern now is whether I am inducing additional vibration into the gimbal from any wear and tear. Gimbal isolator balls will have a mechanical life, at what point have I exceeded that expectation.

I'll try Vimeo this evening, can't be any worse. I'll be out testing another tweak today, hopefully the weather conditions are the same so it'll be a fair comparison to yesterday's efforts.

How did you freeze it?

Maddog · Dec 6, 2015

Soloing said:
You say thank you, but you also say Good Luck. Good luck with what? Are you saying that if I don't do it "your" way, I am out of luck? I am not sure if my comment made you get "butt" hurt or not? Hard to tell. However, you can do whatever you like. You can perform any test you like. Set it on fire. It is your bird and you do with it as you please.

Having said that. This is an open forum. I simply asked why people perform these" tests". Tests, that in my opinion, show nothing.

I never said that I would want a 40' tripod. The reason why I said that you should stay in a steady hover is, because that way you can focus on one of the bigger problems this Gimbal has.

Micro-vibrations.

My, and pretty much all other Gimbals I ever read about, are not having an issue with keeping the frame stabilized, or "level". They are all having an issue with vibrations. In one form or another. So what would the purpose be of throwing your bird around like that, if we already know what the Gimbal performs great when it comes to stabilizing and "leveling"!?

Of course do I agree the purpose is stability in flight. That is why I said you should hover AND fly fast forward. However, it seems that you are missing the point of what a gimbal is supposed to do?! I am surprised you are not mounting it on a 3D Helicopter to "test" if it can keep the footage stable or not, ha ha.

Rich, your test is useless. In general. I am sure some will find it "useful" but they know little about this stuff, or simply "justify" the test by saying, "I like it that way! It makes me feel better!" Good for you! You liking something is not an argument. It doesn't make something better, prettier, more valuable, faster, greater or what not.

If that would be the case, I would be able to knock everyone's teeth out, when I see them sitting in their car with the engine running, while they play on their f-ing phone... Right? I mean, if I like it, it must be "right"

Speaking of liking. I am glad that you like these kind of tests, but objectively, they are worthless.

I let you have the last word.

Unsubsribed

It is because of the efforts of people who refused to accept "OK" and who flew in the face of conventional wisdom that we have the incredible world we have today.

Where would we be if the Manhatten Project scientists said it couldn't be done and gave up? Or the NASA scientists who strived to advance manned space flight and wound up producing the space shuttle?

Just because one does not see the value of an experiment does it mean it is worthless.

erikgraham · Dec 6, 2015

Maddog said:
How did you freeze it?

Just put it in your freezer. As in literally freeze it.

Maddog · Dec 6, 2015

erikgraham said:
Just put it in your freezer. As in literally freeze it.

Well I'll be danged- too simple.

RichWest · Dec 6, 2015

Here's today's effort...

RichWest · Dec 11, 2015

I've made interesting progress this week. The test videos are showing less overall vibration, but still having a slight vertical vibration which causes a blur on vertical lines/objects edges. I know how to remedy, but the gimbal frame and bird's interior limits my ability to use my present solution in hand. Further, I am limited by material used, due to temp extremes. I'll rarely see sub freezing conditions, but then others will not likely see my extreme heat.

Another issue discovered is the need to break-in the solution, basically letting everything settle in to the joining parts. Aggressive flying will help, but unsure of the long term settling effects. I've flown a week with the present configuration and so far so good. Basically all my flight are aggressive, so if it works for me then others should have good results.

Finally, what is good enough? I'm actually trying to obtain solid video, like holding the camera in your hand type of quality. Like said before, "it looks really good", but my eye is not seeing that. Not being a video editor person, I really have no clue what can be done in post to either stabilize or reduce the perceived issues. Maybe the soft look is acceptable or even desired...again, I have no clue.... So maybe I've got the best that can be done up to this point.

Just rambling thoughts, sorry.

J R · Dec 12, 2015

This will be my last "vibration" test using stock motors. I've balanced props, balanced and then replaced 3 motors, replaced the HDMI cable with the ribbon cable. Tried various other methods to reduce vibes that have already been discussed. This is the best I'm getting. I think any remaining vibes have to be motor related.

Jerry

Jim..... · Dec 12, 2015

Has anyone experimented with different gimbal damping balls? It seems we can get very stable video in calm conditions but if falls down when windy.

J R · Dec 12, 2015

Jim..... said:
Has anyone experimented with different gimbal damping balls? It seems we can get very stable video in calm conditions but if falls down when windy.

Jim,

Yes, @RichWest has done extensive work with the balls. I think most of his notes about it are in this thread already.

Jerry

pyrate · Dec 12, 2015

J R said:
This will be my last "vibration" test using stock motors. I've balanced props, balanced and then replaced 3 motors, replaced the HDMI cable with the ribbon cable. Tried various other methods to reduce vibes that have already been discussed. This is the best I'm getting. I think any remaining vibes have to be motor related.

Jerry

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JR we are about at the same level of vibration. at this point I am done with mine. If you stabilize in post from where you are it works great. My last two shoots were about the level of vibration in your video. I rand them through Prodrenilin and lost no noticeable sharpness and the remaining vibrations were non existent

I usually just come off a shoot and run my footage through a rough edit, stabilize then color correct
I just set it up to process the video and go do something else while it renders out.
very pleased with the final results

Jim..... · Dec 12, 2015

Thanks Jerry I'll have a read through.

RichWest · Dec 12, 2015

J R said:
Jim,

Yes, @RichWest has done extensive work with the balls. I think most of his notes about it are in this thread already.

Hey now, I don't go messing around with balls...other than my own or baseballs.

Several are trying alternative isolation balls, typically they have been too soft as they were design for tension type gimbals. I made an impulsive purchased around 5 brands/variety and they were not the correct size, so that was the only failure to work. Another had tried some red ones from hobbyking and stated they were too soft.

I believe a gimbal isolation ball could be produced to mitigate the vibration, but the volume at this point would be minimal. Even a prototype mold, or two or three, would be too costly to justify the effort. We'd be talking $50 a set once everything thing got worked out and still have potential for some issues. 3DR didn't leave us enough room to work with....

J R · Dec 12, 2015

pyrate said:
JR we are about at the same level of vibration.

Pyrate,

Yeah, I'll have to give the ProDad thing another shot. I really can't justify trying to take band new motors and do bearing replacements. I've never done any work to these kind of motors. It is a bit disappointing that so much work has to go into this issue for many of us. Hopefully, 3dr or a third party will come out with a packaged motor solution. Thanks for the reply, I'll give your solution another go.

Jerry

J R · Dec 12, 2015

pyrate said:
JR we are about at the same level of vibration. at this point I am done with mine.

Same test putting it through ProDad. I had to set to Medium. Original file was 780MB, ProDad High was 1.76GB, ProDad Medium was 484MB. Uploading it on High would have taken forever with my Boonie connection.

Jerry

RichWest · Dec 12, 2015

Don't give up on me yet...it's cloudy here and rain is expected through the afternoon. Progress is set back only due to weather and baseball. I did shoot some video this AM and being that it was overcast it's hard for me to see details I'm looking for. My eyes says it looks great, but more light will reveal the lies my eyes tell...

That's a crazy overhead to stabilize your video. Does the percentage of stab equate to files size? Meaning 10% stab creates 30% increase in file size? Can less than 5% stab actually be done in ProDad?

All video I've posted has no post stab, as raw as I can provide.

Going to Baseball game two for the day...seeya.

SoloMio · Dec 12, 2015

RichWest said:
Hey now, I don't go messing around with balls...other than my own or baseballs.

Several are trying alternative isolation balls, typically they have been too soft as they were design for tension type gimbals. I made an impulsive purchased around 5 brands/variety and they were not the correct size, so that was the only failure to work. Another had tried some red ones from hobbyking and stated they were too soft.

I believe a gimbal isolation ball could be produced to mitigate the vibration, but the volume at this point would be minimal. Even a prototype mold, or two or three, would be too costly to justify the effort. We'd be talking $50 a set once everything thing got worked out and still have potential for some issues. 3DR didn't leave us enough room to work with....

Rich, been following this thread with interest but not for awhile and dropped by today to see if you came up with anything new. I put up a side gimbal discussion blog over on frankN's Solo owners thread on RCG. Solo Gimbal - RC Groups Jubal frequents there, don't know about you other guys. I have been wondering about the 3dr dampers as well. Noticed how they seem to sit too low when installed? The curvature of the 3dr round "ball" sphere is kind of deep into the attaching hole brackets above and below compared to other gimbals I've used and they are smooth as well. Wondering if this is why they enhance or pick up too much vibration at irregular intervals. ( possibly corresponding to hard yaw movements or up and down movement of the craft while at other times they seem to work)

I'm thinking about motors again as well, hadn't bothered too much with them because of the results I got from putting the Z1 Tiny2 on the same Solo and motors and getting vibe free footage.( see the footage over there) Now after reading the excellent work by RolandS888 and you guys here with the motors I may go back to them as well now.

RichWest · Dec 12, 2015

SoloMio said:
Rich, been following this thread with interest but not for awhile and dropped by today to see if you came up with anything new. I put up a side gimbal discussion blog over on frankN's Solo owners thread on RCG. Solo Gimbal - RC Groups Jubal frequents there, don't know about you other guys. I have been wondering about the 3dr dampers as well. Noticed how they seem to sit too low when installed? The curvature of the 3dr round "ball" sphere is kind of deep into the attaching hole brackets above and below compared to other gimbals I've used and they are smooth as well. Wondering if this is why they enhance or pick up too much vibration at irregular intervals. ( possibly corresponding to hard yaw movements or up and down movement of the craft while at other times they seem to work)

I'm thinking about motors again as well, hadn't bothered too much with them because of the results I got from putting the Z1 Tiny2 on the same Solo and motors and getting vibe free footage.( see the footage over there) Now after reading the excellent work by RolandS888 and you guys here with the motors I may go back to them as well now.

I've seen the thread and your posts on the subject, picdance?. I like what you've attempted, but it is too elaborate (for what you've shown) for many users to implement and further your statements that it didn't work as expected. Adding weight could reduce the vibration, but at what cost and to what end?

I read of one guy adding around 3 ounces of static weight to the backend of his Solo to help counter balance the gimbal setup. I did similar, but lost nearly 3 minutes of flight time. Weight is not the answer.

3DR really had no choice but to use the round isolators. It was the default solution for compression type gimbals. It functions properly in its design, supports the gimbal and dampens vibration to a certain level.

The source of engineering up to this point however for gimbal vibration isolation has been mainly hobby effort and predominantly Chinese tech. Bang for the buck and it's good enough, "we'll make it work" type of thinking thereafter. The Solo gimbal overlooked some critical engineering when designed, could possibly have been intended by the designers. I really feel 3DR was up against unusual odds when they developed Solo, as it remains today.

My gimbal solution up to this point is completely different of your efforts, actually I've seen nothing similar to my concept, as it was an accidental occurrence that provided my present results. I encourage you to keep developing from your mind's eye. I believe your passion to find a solution will prevail, hopefully you'll learn some valuable knowledge from the experience of trial and error... I have from my efforts.

Honestly, I feel I'm on the cusp of a solution. Baring a material failure, everything looks great from my perspective. I've actually contacted a manufacture for prototype quotes. Question now, when is it good enough to commit real money to the concept....time will tell.

Good luck!

SoloMio · Dec 13, 2015

A fine girly name I have and got stuck with there …My apologies. I'm glad you made clear your intentions to possibly sell your solution or am I not understanding your response?

RichWest · Dec 13, 2015

SoloMio said:
A fine girly name I have and got stuck with there …My apologies. I'm glad you made clear your intentions to possibly sell your solution or am I not understanding your response?

You're half correct, it wasn't my intentions, far from it. But as I've gone down further into the rabbit hole, it appears there is no alternative than to produce a manufactured item even in its present form. To DIY produce, it required tools and jigs, that investment alone would prohibit it being economical for others to duplicate. My hope, if it actually works, is to allow 3DR to offer...hopefully as an upgrade or better yet provide as a OEM retro-solution.

It takes me more than an hour to produce one solution at this point, even in its crude form. Honestly I may have nothing, every tweak has different effects. That's why I think you should continue your discoveries based on how you see the problem and then to a resolve. I'd be happy to watch the RCG thread and provide an observation when requested, but the reply would be from here at 3DRpilots forum. Bad juju over at the other forum.