Compression versus Tension - Gimbal

RichWest · Dec 15, 2015

I was out in +20MPH winds over the weekend, the video was amazing....the next day's video looked horrible in no wind...WTF The material failed over night due to stress. This has been the issue in me providing details, I'm applying material in ways that it was not designed and have pushed it well beyond it's limits. One day can make a difference in the results, better or worse.

The good thing from the failures are the lessons learned. It has been a very interesting experience. There would be no successes without failures.

Here is the latest, installed this AM and flew twice before heading off to work. Tonight I take everything apart again, measure everything and make more notes...and then a few more tweaks...and then wait for sunrise...and repeat.

2.7k 60, GP Studio, cut for length, no stab, straight to YT

And your thoughts?

J R · Dec 15, 2015

RichWest said:
And your thoughts?

Rich,

Looks excellent to me. Sorry to hear of the issues you're experiencing.

Jerry

Jubalr · Dec 16, 2015

RichWest said:
I was out in +20MPH winds over the weekend, the video was amazing....the next day's video looked horrible in no wind...WTF The material failed over night due to stress. This has been the issue in me providing details, I'm applying material in ways that it was not designed and have pushed it well beyond it's limits. One day can make a difference in the results, better or worse.

The good thing from the failures are the lessons learned. It has been a very interesting experience. There would be no successes without failures.

Here is the latest, installed this AM and flew twice before heading off to work. Tonight I take everything apart again, measure everything and make more notes...and then a few more tweaks...and then wait for sunrise...and repeat.

2.7k 60, GP Studio, cut for length, no stab, straight to YT

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And your thoughts?

Great work Rich. Video looks really good.

RichWest · Dec 19, 2015

Weekend testing is fun, interesting what 2.7k will provide...1:04, with a clearer image.

60fps, no stab, fisheye, cut for length, GPStudio to YT...

pyrate · Dec 20, 2015

looks solid

RichWest · Jan 19, 2016

Here's some final test videos shot this weekend. 0% stabilization.

Stock GP4B, 2.7K, 60fps, cut for length only, GPStudio to YT... color and other stuff is unimportant for my testing. I do like what EV Comp can do however.....@3DR please make available within the app so I can change in air.

I can't overcome some vibration on particular maneuvers, which I believe is related to the motors for whatever reason. I'll be changing out to the T-Motors here over the next few weeks for a short round of testing. However, I did as promised for you guys with stock motors, which is worst case examples. Just need to move forward to my final goal in controlling the vibration, wont know until I clear the motors.

Anyway, the raw videos are mostly stable and have clear depth. Frame ticking did not appear in original videos, do on YT. Hope you will look at the background objects as well, I'm impressed with their clarity, even from YT.

Your comments are appreciated.

The first video was re-up'd with a higher bitrate of 18, all others have 10 so they have room for improvement for YT. Thanks to @erikgraham suggestions from his GP Settings FAQ. It increased the file size by about 40%, but it was worth every electron...

erikgraham · Jan 19, 2016

I can't imagine you'll be able to get any smoother than that, with or without the t motor swap or anything else. Well you could fly in alt hold (in solo speak "Fly:Manual"). That would probably help a little in some cases.

At this point, if I were you, I'd do the rest of the stabilization in post for those little vibrations that occasionally appear... but I just know your going to keep tweaking and testing anyway (that's the fun it of it I suppose).

RichWest · Jan 20, 2016

erikgraham said:
I can't imagine you'll be able to get any smoother than that, with or without the t motor swap or anything else. Well you could fly in alt hold (in solo speak "Fly:Manual"). That would probably help a little in some cases.

At this point, if I were you, I'd do the rest of the stabilization in post for those little vibrations that occasionally appear... but I just know your going to keep tweaking and testing anyway (that's the fun it of it I suppose).

I truly appreciate your reply, it is helpful in pushing this forward for Solo.

Actually the fun part is over, as I said, those are my final test videos. I've locked in on the solution, its just a matter of how or why to move forward. I was testing a version that takes all of 5 minutes to install. Actually that was the testing for the weekend, removal and installation of the solution to see if results repeated. Pretty close for a prototype only build.

Rather than beating everyone up with my dribble, I'll jump to my questions. Based on what you said and for what you've seen in the videos, would the solution be of value to you? Value in the sense that you would pay to have it.

I'm fairly certain you'd say yes if it cost $1, but what if it cost $100. Would you still have interest? What would seem like a reasonable cost for the solution as presented in my videos and based on your experience dealing with said issues? I won't be offended if you said it has no value at all, just want an honest answer based on what I've shown to date. Anyone else, feel free to chime in as well. Just trying to have a conversation.

Here in lies the next hurdle. The cost of materials and my time prevents me from considering offering as a "tinker shop" made solution. It takes me an hour to produce one solution and that's with crude home made tooling. Up to this point it was just nickles and dimes being spent. The obvious choice is to have an actual manufactured product. Even short run molded parts have a relative high molding cost. I'm trying to gauge if my solution for Solo warrants further investment or just move on to greener pastures.

FWIW, Google was just granted a patent for a damper assembly in Dec. of 2015. It's a fairly complicated solution. I imagine it won't be available to us anytime soon, if ever. Further confirms, beyond Solo, the market is developing solutions to meet the need to isolate vibration. Is my mouse trap better?

erikgraham · Jan 20, 2016

Well it would depend on the solution. I stabilize all my footage in post, even if it looks smooth. After software stabilization I'm *usually* pretty happy with the footage.

If the solution is simply to balance props and motors, then I'd probably pass. If it's a dampening systems that fits between the gimbal and Solo then I'd probably be interested. If for no other reason than to give it a try. I'll mull it over some more and reply when i have some time (at my kids soccer practice right now).

RichWest · Jan 20, 2016

erikgraham said:
Well it would depend on the solution. I stabilize all my footage in post, even if it looks smooth. After software stabilization I'm *usually* pretty happy with the footage.

If the solution is simply to balance props and motors, then I'd probably pass. If it's a dampening systems that fits between the gimbal and Solo then I'd probably be interested. If for no other reason than to give it a try. I'll mull it over some more and reply when i have some time (at my kids soccer practice right now).

Sure, I've understood you stabilize in post, actually your very good with it's usage. You're a video pro.

I have lacked in giving some details, sorry... Will not void your warranty, as nothing on or in Solo is permanently modified. Tools, a screw driver to remove and re-install the gimbal. It is strictly a replacement vibration damping system, just a modified design from the existing round isolators. Other than the solution being (proposed) neon green, Solo would look normal. This does not mimic any damper or mod I've seen to date, functional or not. It really is a unique design and application of material(s).

RichWest · Jan 20, 2016

Still want your input, but I'm pulling the trigger on Monday. Hopefully you'll see it around May. Thanks for the conversation...

J R · Jan 21, 2016

RichWest said:
Still want your input, but I'm pulling the trigger on Monday. Hopefully you'll see it around May. Thanks for the conversation...

Rich,

Sorry but I've been on vacation for the last week! Personally, I love it! Your video sample tests look extremely smooth. Like you, I'm not yet at all proficient with the post processing elements as many of the other prosumer and professionals around here are, however, I want the best quality that I can achieve straight out of the raw footage.

As you already know, I'm also anal about this stability issue. With that in mind and factoring in the cost that I've already put into the Solo platform and its components, I'd certainly pay $20-$80, maybe $100 for a concrete solution to this problem. Obviously, it's hard to put a price on it without knowing what you're actually getting. If I saw or received a package with four different colored isolation balls for $100, I might be very skeptical and may not want to take the risk but if I knew that it actually worked, I might bite.

If it was on sale right now for $20-$40, it'd be on order already. Following your work and knowing the time and energy you've invested in this (knowing you, which the masses won't) I'd give you $100 today. I think you're trying to determine market appeal and acceptability, so that's what I'm trying to provide.

I think your marketing base will be limited and it'll be a difficult product to promote and make a profitable return on unless you can market it directly to the OEM as an upgrade/manufacturing replacement.

I wouldn't consider myself the "norm" regarding this product. As Erik has already indicated, most will probably deal with these issues in post and probably wouldn't pay what I would for something like the product you're describing.

I hope that helps. I want the first one and I'll pay $100 for mine but I know the work you've put into trying to solve this problem,

Jerry

erikgraham · Jan 21, 2016

Just getting back here. I'm with @J R . A bit slammed with work. Will post back later.

pyrate · Jan 21, 2016

early adopters are good

RichWest · Jan 22, 2016

pyrate said:
early adopters are good

The next few weeks are going to interesting...

I appreciate the replies. I came to an understanding last night, the system works or at least it will at some point. Not a product in the world has just a V1 and are still in business. Like anything, it can be improved upon if you actually have something. I believe we'll have a Solo V2, I'd like to make a contribution to that effort.

The risk reduced when I realized this solution has application well beyond Solo. Other's use Solo for circuit boards and software testing, my thing is mechanical. I'm glad 3DR produced Solo, I think in time many will as well.

The monies question was a trick, I'm thinking $10 is too much even if it works. But the way the world works, it would likely be $20. Everyone wants a "piece of the pie" kind of thing. We'll see, I prefer volume based sales rather than margin based sales. More happy people, less copy cats.

erikgraham · Jan 22, 2016

Just getting back on here now. I'll catch up on this thread tomorrow.

SurfnSkate81 · Jan 22, 2016

Rich, your videos look amazing. Don't know what your keeping tabs on but I'll be buying one from you!

J R · Jan 22, 2016

RichWest said:
The next few weeks are going to interesting...

I appreciate the replies. I came to an understanding last night, the system works or at least it will at some point. Not a product in the world has just a V1 and are still in business. Like anything, it can be improved upon if you actually have something. I believe we'll have a Solo V2, I'd like to make a contribution to that effort.

The risk reduced when I realized this solution has application well beyond Solo. Other's use Solo for circuit boards and software testing, my thing is mechanical. I'm glad 3DR produced Solo, I think in time many will as well.

The monies question was a trick, I'm thinking $10 is too much even if it works. But the way the world works, it would likely be $20. Everyone wants a "piece of the pie" kind of thing. We'll see, I prefer volume based sales rather than margin based sales. More happy people, less copy cats.

Rich,

I could write a book in response to this post! You're covering a lot of ground in an extremely summarized format. You're on to the "business" side of product development, production, distribution, marketing, etc. now. Basically, business planning. The single biggest mistake that most entrepreneurs make. They don't like developing "The Plan" in a thorough and written form. The most important part, in my opinion.

"Price" will best be determined by the "The Plan". It's achieved mostly by all of the mathamatical data compiled by producing the "Plan". The process of developing "The Plan" will typically determine the market viability of the product, system or idea. At least that's the way it's worked in my business world. I have produced many business plans that were never even executed. The result of developing the plan determined that the product, system or idea could not support its introduction to the market in a profitable manner. Even though the product, system or idea was very viable, the marketplace could not or would not support its implementation from a financial standpoint.

See, here I go! Anyway, if it were me, I'd be letting "The Plan" determine the price. I'll leave it at that...

Jerry

SurfnSkate81 · Jan 22, 2016

Erik, what software are you using for stabilisation?

erikgraham · Jan 22, 2016

SurfnSkate81 said:
Erik, what software are you using for stabilisation?

Mostly the stabilizer built into Final Cut. Contrary to others, I find it better than warp stabilizer. For problem issues I go into Motion which has more control. Tried core melts Lock and Load, which is supposed to be better, but just isn't. Not anymore anyway. I don't think they've updated it in a long time. I'm looking into using reel steady (an after effects plugin) to stabilize super aggressive flying. ReelSteady